Answering Infekt/fm/ the Muslim Apologist

John R. Houk
© October 29, 2009

Well here we go. I received some criticism from a Muslim apologist who no doubt considers himself a moderate. His profile name is infekt/fm/. His blogger blog is entitled, “Open Tunings.” I have to give infekt/fm/ some credit. He did not post his comment as anonymous as most Muslim apologists do who take umbrage with my criticism of Mohammedanism which is politically correct known as Islam.

I am going to show infekt/fm/’s entire comment post at SlantRight then I will follow this with a rough response break down to his points. Infekt/fm/’s comment is to my blogger SlantRight account entitled, “Quran quotes every woman should see.”

First infekt/fm/ comment 10/28/09:

That's hadith you're quoting, not quran, buddy.

I checked out that site. pretty hateful, that's not the America I'd like to live in.

Second infekt/fm/ comment also 10/28/09:

oh yeah, here's something interesting..

Genesis 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Ephesians 5:22-24
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

1 Corinthians 14:34-36
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Colossians 3:18
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

Timothy 2:11-15
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.

1 Peter 3:1
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands.

Ah yes, discrimination against women in the Bible. You see, this how things were in the ancient times. All religions are like this, it's just a matter of interpretation. Those in middle east are hateful, so they interpret the Quran in the most hateful manner. It's disgusting. But should not generalize all women, or Islam. The same as I don't discriminate against Christians or disparage Christianity. Learn some tolerance. Don't make me put some quotes up from the book of mormon haha!

Hmm.. some more that I find particularly disturbing..

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. -- Deuteronomy 22:23-24

A women gets raped, so kill her as well? Hmm...

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days -- Deuteronomy 22:28-29

For the Rape of a virgin and 50 shekels, a man can get a wife!!

Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. Genesis 19:32-36

Lot impregnated both of his virgin daughters...enough said.

Let's not forget many Biblical figures were polygamists, such as Abraham, Lamech, Jacob, Solomon...etc

You see, anyone can do this!

So let’s start with Comment one.

That's hadith you're quoting, not quran, buddy.

You are close infekt/fm/. The Infidel’s Are Cool post of “Top 10 Quran quotes every woman MUST SEE” is sourced with Hadith comments of the actual Quranic Suras which are mixed in together. I am sure that is a fine point with Muslims however to non-Muslims (aka infidel or kafir) the meaning is totally accurate. To my fellow kafirs that are unaware, the Hadith is considered in near reverence (but not equal) to the Quran.

I checked out that site[i.e. Infidel’s Are Cool]. pretty hateful, that's not the America I'd like to live in.

Among Muslims and Muslim apologists in the West, it has become pretty standard to pull the “racist” or “hate” card to anyone that is critical of Mohammedanism. One has to find it interesting that when Muslims or Muslim apologists denigrate Christianity or the deity of Jesus Christ the Son of God, there is not rioting in the West and Mosques are not ravished with the Imams murdered. One has to only look into the recent history of Muslim hate that occurred over the Mohammed cartoon issue to understand that Muslims and Muslim apologists have a double standard when it comes to reality.

Response to Comment Two:

Genesis 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

If infekt/fm/ is attempting this Biblical verse is a call to oppress women his ignorance is showing. From a Christian perspective this verse simply gives a reason why woman have contractions and the pain involved in pushing the infant out of the wound. The painful effort is the result of the Curse for the Fall of Adam and Eve. Part of a male’s curse is toil to make a living rather than have everything provided in a Paradise like Eden.

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Ephesians 5:22-24
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

1 Corinthians 14:34-36
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Colossians 3:18
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

Timothy 2:11-15
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.

1 Peter 3:1
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands.

Infekt/fm/ is trying to say Christianity is as Biblically oppressive of women as Islam is. Indeed, the history of the Church would indicate a no-rights subservience of woman to man, but is that truly Biblically Scriptural?

Christianity adheres to the New Testament as the final authority between the Old and New Testaments. Judaism focuses upon the Tanakh as the authority. I know little to nothing of Judaic theology so I cannot speak of the Judaic interpretation of the Old Testament.

As a Christian I can say that the New Testament Scripture does NOT denigrate women to a form of chattel with zero rights for the female. The New Testament contrarily demands that the husband respect the wife as Christ respects His Bride which is the Church.

Examples of New Testament respect for women:

38 Now it happened as they went that He entered a certain village; and a certain woman named Martha welcomed Him into her house. 39 And she had a sister called Mary, who also sat at Jesus’[a] feet and heard His word. 40 But Martha was distracted with much serving, and she approached Him and said, “Lord, do You not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Therefore tell her to help me.”
41 And Jesus[b] answered and said to her, “Martha, Martha, you are worried and troubled about many things. 42 But one thing is needed, and Mary has chosen that good part, which will not be taken away from her.” (Luke 10: 38-42)

11 But Mary stood outside by the tomb weeping, and as she wept she stooped down and looked into the tomb. 12 And she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 Then they said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?”
She said to them, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him.”
14 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?”
She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, “Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!”
She turned and said to Him,[a] “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher).
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord,[b] and that He had spoken these things to her. (John 20: 11-18. Note that Jesus FIRST appeared to a woman after the Resurrection to give instruction to the men.)

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3: 26-29)

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her [Muslim Apologists love this part but fail to read from vv. 26-33.], 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body,[a] of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”[b] 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. (Ephesians 5: 22-33)

13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”[a] 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (Galatians 5: 13-18)

1 Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy, 2 fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. 4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2: 1-11)

18 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them.
20 Children, obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord.
21 Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged.
22 Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God. 23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for[a] you serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality. (Colossians 3: 18-25)

1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.
7 Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered.
8 Finally, all of you be of one mind, having compassion for one another; love as brothers, be tenderhearted, be courteous;[a] 9 not returning evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary blessing, knowing that you were called to this, that you may inherit a blessing. (1 Peter 3: 1-9. Note that Sarah was in obedience to Abraham, but also note that Abraham booted the slave Hagar and his oldest son upon the request of Sarah. Abraham did not say, “Forget you Sarah, I want those nubile young ladies for sex at my desire.”)

Moving on with Comment 2:

Hmm.. some more that I find particularly disturbing..

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. -- Deuteronomy 22:23-24

As I have said earlier infekt/fm/ I am not a Judaic theologian; however I am fairly certain stoning is no where practiced among Jews for infidelity as it is among Muslims (Here, Here, Here and more if you Google Islamic Stoning) in the Middle East in the present. Let’s check out what Jesus says about stoning for infidelity or adultery:

2 Now early[a] in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came to Him; and He sat down and taught them. 3 Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, 4 they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught[b] in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses, in the law, commanded[c] us that such should be stoned.[d] But what do You say?”[e] 6 This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.[f]
7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up[g] and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” 8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience,[h] went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her,[i] “Woman, where are those accusers of yours?[j] Has no one condemned you?”
11 She said, “No one, Lord.”
And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and[k] sin no more.” (John 8: 2-11)

Infekt/fm/ continues:

A women gets raped, so kill her as well? Hmm...

Infekt/fm/ quotes Deuteronomy 22: 28-29

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days


This is not a description of rape. Rather this is a description of consensual sex out of wedlock which is better termed fornication. Note that the Law of Moses as described here does not have the “virgin” stoned or whipped. Rather the two are forced into a marriage or and pay the virgin’s dad a mandatory dowry of 50 Shekels of silver. I wonder what happens if two unmarried people have fornication in the Middle East?

For the Rape of a virgin and 50 shekels, a man can get a wife!!

For this Infekt/fm/ is simply producing his comment incorrectly to rape when it is fornication assuming this passage is a reward rather than a punishment. O the Muslim mind.

Then infekt/fm/ writes this:

Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. Genesis 19:32-36

Which infekt/fm follows with an interesting comment:

Lot impregnated both of his virgin daughters...enough said.

Let's not forget many Biblical figures were polygamists, such as Abraham, Lamech, Jacob, Solomon...etc

So Lot impregnated his daughters – NOT enough said. Lot was in a drunken stupor which is not an approved condition in the Old Testament although it is not punishable in itself. Drunkenness is condemned primarily because it leads to forbidden sins and bad decisions which can be punishable.

11 Woe to those who rise early in the morning,
That they may follow intoxicating drink;
Who continue until night, till wine inflames them!
12 The harp and the strings,
The tambourine and flute,
And wine are in their feasts;
But they do not regard the work of the LORD,
Nor consider the operation of His hands. (Isaiah 5: 11-12)

12 And in that day the Lord GOD of hosts
Called for weeping and for mourning,
For baldness and for girding with sackcloth.
13 But instead, joy and gladness,
Slaying oxen and killing sheep,
Eating meat and drinking wine:

“Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”
14 Then it was revealed in my hearing by the LORD of hosts,

“Surely for this iniquity there will be no atonement for you,
Even to your death,” says the Lord GOD of hosts. (Isaiah 22: 12-14)

7 But they also have erred through wine,
And through intoxicating drink are out of the way;
The priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink,
They are swallowed up by wine,
They are out of the way through intoxicating drink;
They err in vision, they stumble in judgment. (Isaiah 28: 7)

29 Who has woe?,/b>
Who has sorrow?
Who has contentions?
Who has complaints?
Who has wounds without cause?
Who has redness of eyes?
30 Those who linger long at the wine,
Those who go in search of mixed wine.
31 Do not look on the wine when it is red,
When it sparkles in the cup,
When it swirls around smoothly;
32 At the last it bites like a serpent,
And stings like a viper.
33 Your eyes will see strange things,
And your heart will utter perverse things.
34 Yes, you will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea,
Or like one who lies at the top of the mast, saying:
"They have struck me, but I was not hurt; They have beaten me, but I did not feel it. When shall I awake, that I may seek another drink?" (Isaiah 23: 29-35)

That is the rough idea on Old Testament and drunkenness.

As to Lot’s act of incest: of course incest is condemned in the Old Testament. Lot’s daughters began to fear the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah for the sin of sexual perversion was the destruction of ALL human life. Thus their corrupt thinking led them to believe the only man on planet earth was daddy Lot. What’s a girl to do without a husband, or so they thought? Let’s get the only man left to produce some kids to keep the species going.

That was stupid thinking that ended up producing races that were enemies of Israel and due for eradication for their evil ways (Moab and Ammon).

As to many being polygamists in the Old Testament: again I cannot answer for Judaism. Evidently polygamy was even a practice among some Christians even though the practice was frowned upon. In Scripture the verse demanding a man have one wife was not a reference to monogamy as much as it was a demand that person in the position of spiritual overseer should not have more than one wife.

1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop,[a] he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money,[b] but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; (1 Timothy 3: 1-3)

…

2 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 3: 12-13)

The Christian tradition handed over history has interpreted this as monogamy. Indeed monogamy is the preferred form of matrimony in Christianity.

My criticism of Islam is validated – enough said.

JRH 10/29/09